ms_dunlap wrote: I have a really good student that the majority of the time makes good decisions.   I have recently been informed that he has made a very poor decision that has ended up with him being expelled from school for the rest of the year.  I am wondering if having him at the school is going to set a bad example for the students.  This student is supposed to be testing for his black belt in april.  This student will not be testing, but is allowing him to continue being at the school a good idea?I fully believe in the Martial Arts way, I totally agree with tough love, dicipline, and self control.  pushing when needed to be pushed. How is the right way to go about dealing with the problem? any insight would be appriciated. Thank You for your time, Ms_Dunlap

Plenty of good responses already, so there's little that I can add.  Ranger and Old Guy pretty much hit the nail on the head, though from different perspectives.

I guess the only thing that I can add is that if the student's expultion involved him using training he'd received at your dojang, then I could see considering disciplinary action, including delaying a dan testing.  For example, if the student had been using such training to be a more effective bully.

Our school does have a visible posted set of rules.  Aside from rules about conduct in the dojang, we do have rules regarding conduct outside of the dojang as well.  On that list are the very clear cut rules of not doing drugs or engaging in criminal activity.  There's also a very broad rule of, "do nothing that would dishonor the dojang in any way." 

Not sure what your rules are like, but as Old Guy said, make sure to protect yourself in levying punishments for actions taken outside of the dojang.  There are many students or parents of students who see the martial arts as nothing more than a business arrangement and who will take action if they feel that they are somehow being denied a service for fee.

Having said that, I commend you for being concerned about more than just the student's martial training. 

Daniel

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교사 Yidan kumdo, Ildan taekwondo

You have received some very good advice here.  In particular, I would like to commend Ranger for an excellent response!

I have been teaching Taekwondo for 30 years, and have encountered a wide range of situations with students, parents, schools, and the community.  Your dilemma is not unusual.

I find it is always best to get all sides of the story.  While it is my right as an instructor to require a high standard of moral character and behavior of ALL of my students (young and old), I believe it is also my responsibility, since I am sharing knowledge of what could be a deadly weapon.

It is also good business to establish communication with parents and schools to inform the public that you are not just training a bunch of street-fighting bullies.  Never worry, though, about anyone thinking you are wrong for keeping a student such as this, so long as your message is clear.  I train students to better themselves, and I don't kick them out because of their bad behavior.  I just don't promote them, until they get their priorities straight, their attitude in check, and their behavior under control.  Parents often bring their children to me BECAUSE of their bad behavior.  I take it as my job to straighten them out - - no matter how long it takes!

As to Old Guy's response, I have read many wise and insightful replies that he has written, so I hope not to offend anyone , but I must respectfully disagree with this one.  Perhaps it is the type of instructor that I have chosen to be (and was taught to be), but I have different perspective on the responsibility of instructors who teach Taekwondo.

Old_Guy wrote: Personally if it didn't endanger the safety of my students and the person wasn't disrupting my classes what happened at school is truly none of your business.  If an adult student was cheating on their spouse, do you throw them out?  What if a family cheats on their income tax, or has the police called on them because a party got out of hand?

For me, yes, this is all my business, and I make it my business.  If a person wants to learn what I know, I require them to either be a person of good moral character, law abiding member of society, with self control and a good positive attitude towards others, or become one before I recommend them for promotion to a high rank - especially Black Belt!

Old_Guy wrote: You run a business, this person is a client paying for a service.  If you denied me my BB based on something that happened outside of class and had nothing to do with the class and it was understood that my goal in rcving training was to get my BB and certification.  If I had met all of criteria to test and rcv this certification and not been awarded it, I would sue you for all of my fee's and for the time that I had spent under your tuteldge.

Laws vary around the world, and while anyone can sue, they would not likely prevail in a U.S. court.

However, Old Guy did make one important point that I do agree with.

Old_Guy wrote: If instructors are going to hold their students to that higher standard in and out of the dojang it definately needs to be understood.  It should be placed right up front from the minute they walk in.  I don't mean an unspoken understanding betwen parties I mean a written and signed understanding between instructor and student.

I believe it is our right, and our duty to hold our students to higher standard, inside the Dojang and out, but the fact that you are running a business, selling goods and services, you should have it in writing and signed upon enrollment.  The contract I use with my students (every paragraph read and initialed, and signed by the student and parents of minors) is designed to comply with the law, and make the agreement clear, and unmistakable.  I offer "training" in Taekwondo, not a guarantee of "rank," promotions, specific weight loss, Olympic gold medals, or any other preconceived goals desired by the student.  At my Dojang, promotion to any rank, particularly Black Belt, is a privilege, and is dependant upon a great many things.  It is not automatic, nor guaranteed, regardless of how much money someone pays me.  Proper conduct in one's life is part of the "criteria" for Black Belt rank at my Dojang, and my students know this!

As to any troubled student, I suggest private conferences with the student (with parents for school age children), and constant communication with the school, or anyone with whom your student has had a conflict.  Find out if your student is even partly to blame for the incident, then make it clear that your student needs to set a better example, even if the public school's punishment does not fit the offense.  Teach your student to rise above that, apologize for any wrong doing, and then to become the best example of a model student.  Let the school, the parents, and the community see what you can do to improve the life of a troubled child (even if this is a one-time incident).

Respectfully,

Chief Master Eisenhart

Chief_Master wrote: You have received some very good advice here.  In particular, I would like to commend Ranger for an excellent response! I have been teaching Taekwondo for 30 years, and have encountered a wide range of situations with students, parents, schools, and the community.  Your dilemma is not unusual. I find it is always best to get all sides of the story.  While it is my right as an instructor to require a high standard of moral character and behavior of ALL of my students (young and old), I believe it is also my responsibility, since I am sharing knowledge of what could be a deadly weapon. It is also good business to establish communication with parents and schools to inform the public that you are not just training a bunch of street-fighting bullies.  Never worry, though, about anyone thinking you are wrong for keeping a student such as this, so long as your message is clear.  I train students to better themselves, and I don't kick them out because of their bad behavior.  I just don't promote them, until they get their priorities straight, their attitude in check, and their behavior under control.  Parents often bring their children to me BECAUSE of their bad behavior.  I take it as my job to straighten them out - - no matter how long it takes! As to Old Guy's response, I have read many wise and insightful replies that he has written, so I hope not to offend anyone , but I must respectfully disagree with this one.  Perhaps it is the type of instructor that I have chosen to be (and was taught to be), but I have different perspective on the responsibility of instructors who teach Taekwondo. Old_Guy wrote: Personally if it didn't endanger the safety of my students and the person wasn't disrupting my classes what happened at school is truly none of your business.  If an adult student was cheating on their spouse, do you throw them out?  What if a family cheats on their income tax, or has the police called on them because a party got out of hand? For me, yes, this is all my business, and I make it my business.  If a person wants to learn what I know, I require them to either be a person of good moral character, law abiding member of society, with self control and a good positive attitude towards others, or become one before I recommend them for promotion to a high rank - especially Black Belt! Old_Guy wrote: You run a business, this person is a client paying for a service.  If you denied me my BB based on something that happened outside of class and had nothing to do with the class and it was understood that my goal in rcving training was to get my BB and certification.  If I had met all of criteria to test and rcv this certification and not been awarded it, I would sue you for all of my fee's and for the time that I had spent under your tuteldge.  Laws vary around the world, and while anyone can sue, they would not likely prevail in a U.S. court. However, Old Guy did make one important point that I do agree with. Old_Guy wrote: If instructors are going to hold their students to that higher standard in and out of the dojang it definately needs to be understood.  It should be placed right up front from the minute they walk in.  I don't mean an unspoken understanding betwen parties I mean a written and signed understanding between instructor and student.  I believe it is our right, and our duty to hold our students to higher standard, inside the Dojang and out, but the fact that you are running a business, selling goods and services, you should have it in writing and signed upon enrollment.  The contract I use with my students (every paragraph read and initialed, and signed by the student and parents of minors) is designed to comply with the law, and make the agreement clear, and unmistakable.  I offer "training" in Taekwondo, not a guarantee of "rank," promotions, specific weight loss, Olympic gold medals, or any other preconceived goals desired by the student.  At my Dojang, promotion to any rank, particularly Black Belt, is a privilege, and is dependant upon a great many things.  It is not automatic, nor guaranteed, regardless of how much money someone pays me.  Proper conduct in one's life is part of the "criteria" for Black Belt rank at my Dojang, and my students know this! As to any troubled student, I suggest private conferences with the student (with parents for school age children), and constant communication with the school, or anyone with whom your student has had a conflict.  Find out if your student is even partly to blame for the incident, then make it clear that your student needs to set a better example, even if the public school's punishment does not fit the offense.  Teach your student to rise above that, apologize for any wrong doing, and then to become the best example of a model student.  Let the school, the parents, and the community see what you can do to improve the life of a troubled child (even if this is a one-time incident). Respectfully, Chief Master Eisenhart

I hope that you weren't worried about offending me, I respect everyone on this board and expect people to give honest responses based on their point of view and experiences...thats what I do. 

I had read the responses Ms Dunlap was rcving and knew that my opinion was going to be different and perhaps a bit controversial.  As I started to type my response the heart just kind of took over.  I felt like this student was in danger of being punished twice, abandoned for lack of a better word for something outside the dojang. 

My boy is involved in a situation in school where it looks like despite his, mine, and the schools best efforts he may be forced to physically defend himself.  Some things just can not be avoided and we have already been told that this will result in a suspension.  If he was suspended from TKD because of this or as we are approaching our testing date, told that he would not be testing for his 3rd degree because of what happened in school in my opinion this would be foul, incredibly unjust.  I would fight it with every resource at my disposal.  Too much time and effort from a great kid has been put into achieving a goal, to have it pulled away for something not even remotely related to the dojang and out of his control.  Like most parents, if you want to see indomitable spirit, do wrong by my child.  I'll be the first to admit that on these occasions there's not a lot of self control going on. 

For the life of me I couldn't seperate Ms Dunlap's student from what's going on here.  I hovered above the submit button for a long time but finally it is just not in my nature to hold back because what I think may not be the popular choice.  When it is all said and done, I hope his parents are going to be involved in what ever happens in the dojang, as a parent I would want to be.

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Was that hands up and chin down, or the other way around?