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| POSTED BY: Dick on 08/05/2008 05:10:24 |
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We all have our usual methods of disciplining students based on age, rank etc. Most times the usual works, but every so often, for some reason the usual does not. I have two students whom I’ve recently had to come up with different strategies for. The first is training for his Cho Dan Bo and whilst is capable of grading from the knowledge/capability perspective still is unable to be able to focus mentally in class outside his peripherals. Rather than stopping his chatting when I speak he’ll carry on. When I pick him up on it he’ll still try to finish the conversation in a whisper out of the corner of his mouth, it appears to be compulsive and his parents would agree it is a problem he has. He’s aware that he needs to curb that behaviour to move upwards in his belt rankings but can’t seem to be able to do it. My solution has been to pull all his mates together, tell them where he stands in terms of his grading and asked them all when it’s time to focus the closest one to him has to physically give him a small nudge and motion to me or whatever the situation is that needs his undivided attention. The second student has managed to scrape through her gradings up until now; her next grading is the step up to red belt. Her training has steadily declined and is aware she will not be grading until it improves. It has reached the point that I’m considering suspending her because of her negative influences on the rest of the class, it appears that being naughty gets the attention and that’s what she is chasing. Rather than suspension I’ve decided to ban her wearing her current belt. She will now train with a white belt and will be positioned in the line up accordingly. This will continue until I believe she is ready to grade again. I’ve yet to see the result of both of these methods as I’ve only implemented them this week but it will be interesting to see the responses. What do others do as a means of discipline, or encouragement when the tried and true don’t work? |
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| POSTED BY: Old_Guy on 08/05/2008 06:20:07 |
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"rawr" wrote:
We all have our usual methods of disciplining students based on age, rank etc. Most times the usual works, but every so often, for some reason the usual does not. I have two students whom I’ve recently had to come up with different strategies for. The first is training for his Cho Dan Bo and whilst is capable of grading from the knowledge/capability perspective still is unable to be able to focus mentally in class outside his peripherals. Rather than stopping his chatting when I speak he’ll carry on. When I pick him up on it he’ll still try to finish the conversation in a whisper out of the corner of his mouth, it appears to be compulsive and his parents would agree it is a problem he has. He’s aware that he needs to curb that behaviour to move upwards in his belt rankings but can’t seem to be able to do it. My solution has been to pull all his mates together, tell them where he stands in terms of his grading and asked them all when it’s time to focus the closest one to him has to physically give him a small nudge and motion to me or whatever the situation is that needs his undivided attention. The second student has managed to scrape through her gradings up until now; her next grading is the step up to red belt. Her training has steadily declined and is aware she will not be grading until it improves. It has reached the point that I’m considering suspending her because of her negative influences on the rest of the class, it appears that being naughty gets the attention and that’s what she is chasing. Rather than suspension I’ve decided to ban her wearing her current belt. She will now train with a white belt and will be positioned in the line up accordingly. This will continue until I believe she is ready to grade again. I’ve yet to see the result of both of these methods as I’ve only implemented them this week but it will be interesting to see the responses. What do others do as a means of discipline, or encouragement when the tried and true don’t work?
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As harsh as it sounds, kick them loose. I had an instructor tell me while discussing the same sort of problem that he was there to teach and coach not to raise someone elses children. You've talked to them, warned them, talked to them, disciplined them and it continues, walk them to the door, refund their parents money and assure them that when they really want to learn TKD theyll be more than welcome to return. It isn't fair to the rest of your class for them to put up with a load of crap from 2 classmates who apparently aren't that interested in training. My .02
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Was that hands up and chin down, or the other way around?
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| POSTED BY: Dick on 08/05/2008 06:53:01 |
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G'day Old Guy, how you been lately Must admit that thought crossed my mind and it would be the simplest thing to do but I'm not ready to go down that path just yet. People management is quite challenging and getting it right can be rewarding, so getting it right will give me something I didn't have before, therefore I persevere. One of the number of management courses I've done in the past made the point that if you have to sack someone from work in some way you failed as a people manager. I agree with that philosopy, having said that in twenty or so years of managing fruit pickers I've have sacked an army of people for one reason or another, some people are just beyond my ability to manage Each instructor has their own level of tolerance and they need to work to that so as to learn. Aside from this example I've given as a means to demonstrate a different way of doing things what else sits outside the square and works is what I'm interested in the most. |
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| POSTED BY: Old_Guy on 08/05/2008 07:06:48 |
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"rawr" wrote:
G'day Old Guy, how you been lately Must admit that thought crossed my mind and it would be the simplest thing to do but I'm not ready to go down that path just yet. People management is quite challenging and getting it right can be rewarding, so getting it right will give me something I didn't have before, therefore I persevere. One of the number of management courses I've done in the past made the point that if you have to sack someone from work in some way you failed as a people manager. I agree with that philosopy, having said that in twenty or so years of managing fruit pickers I've have sacked an army of people for one reason or another, some people are just beyond my ability to manage Each instructor has their own level of tolerance and they need to work to that so as to learn. Aside from this example I've given as a means to demonstrate a different way of doing things what else sits outside the square and works is what I'm interested in the most.
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Best of luck with them but don't let it get to the point where you have folks not coming to train because of these 2, that would be a shame. BTW things here have been good except for this hamstring Ive been nursing for the last couple of months. You know the drill quick to injure, slow to heal. As much as I enjoy being the Old Guy being old sux sometimes
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Was that hands up and chin down, or the other way around?
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| POSTED BY: Dick on 08/05/2008 07:32:00 |
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Wont get to that stage. PS I should change my name to rawr 
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Sometimes the unusual is what is needed. When I was in high school and came to a wrestling pratice hung over from New Year's Eve party, the coach made me and the others run until we got sick and worked us hard. Since I was a team captain, I was lectured on being responisble and as part my punishment is that I had to take his daughter (9) and some of her friends to a Backstreet Boys concert. OMG all the did was scream the whole time. It taught me never so up anywhere hung over.
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Exwrestler turned Martial Artist
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| POSTED BY: major3rd on 08/05/2008 13:22:47 |
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Here's my bit on these two situations. I'll say upfront that I respect you for bringing this into the forum. There, I've said something nice.
If you can't handle this situation, then you have not fulfilled your duty as an instructor. If we, as instructors, think that our only function is to show someone how to punch, kick, grab, or what have you, then we're part of the problem of modern education; all function, no personal cultivation. Without that personal cultivation, then we're basically turning out children with loaded guns and have only increased the efficiency that they can wield brutality into the world. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that this isn't a good thing.
The young gentleman speaking out of the corner of his mouth; he thinks his conversation is more important than the class. I've had similar problems from students myself and, the easiest way to with it for me, was to turn up the volume of the class. Whenever he talks in this manner, simply begin a drill. Don't give him the time to do it. If he holds the class up with it, then realize that this is why god made push ups, laps, squats, etc. Our GM recently had a problem with some teenagers all chatting it up during class. The did bouncing while crouched and smacking their backs with Shinai (JookDo). From what I understand, it was a very attentive class from there on. Work these people and they'll be too tired to disrupt your class.
On the young woman; why do you single her out the way you have? If you want someone to treat you with respect, shouldn't you be doing the same with him/her? She earned her belt - maybe not with flying colors, but earned it none the less. You take it from her and wonder why her attitude hasn't improved? I don't know what she's doing wrong specifically. I do know that if you run a class hard enough, they will not have time or energy to give you any drama. If they don't follow the pace of the class out of poor behavior, then give them push ups. When she does accomplish the desired thing, then tell her she has done so.
First, I think you need to change the direction of the conversation. "No" and "Yes" are narrow words. By that, I mean saying no means denying one thing while saying yes means denying all things but one. Engineer your conversations with students in such a way as to be saying yes to the right things. Part of your function in this is to help them realize that they are capable of much more than they realize. You're not going to do that by putting someone down, denying behaviors, and generally fighting fire with fire. Make it clear what they need to do to succeed, make sure you give them attainable steps in order to do so, and help them realize that with hard work, attention, and perserverance, that there is very little (if anything) out of their grasp.
Second, I would encourage you to structure your classes in such a way that there is less of your personality involved. Get them in there, work them like crazy, and get them out of there feeling like they accomplished something in the pool of sweat. This isn't about you; this is about the art. If students have the opportunity to explore these side paths of behavior, then I wonder how demanding the classes are. This is vital when dealing with younger people; they need to be ready for nap time when you're done with them or at least a meal. That's why they're there and that's why they pay you. This was supported by many of the Koreans I know that I've come across over the years. They always say "Americans just talk talk talk during class. They didn't come here to talk, why is that man talking? In Korea, it's offensive to say someone talks too much. Is it an offensive thing to say in America? It doesn't seem so!" Instead of changing belts, you could be telling this person that they are helping to set the tone for how things work in class. You could find something they do well and use them as examples to the class. You can demonstrate the proper way to stand out in a martial arts class: display massive amounts of talent and be there to help your brothers and sisters when they need you.
Remember, you're setting the tone. If the classes are about your personality, then the students will follow suit and their personalities will be all through it. If you're all about work, then the students tend to shut up and do the work. Realize that any change you do will not occur overnight. This is cumulative. My old music instructor told me when I started teaching that "We're like farmers, really. We get poop, sun, and water and try to make food out of it. We are measured by effort over time against our results. Just like the things we plant, we have to be steadfast when they come in stressed out, in la la land, or unsure of themselves and just keep churning the dirt... keep pulling the weeds... make sure there's just enough of what they need. We're just farmers, man."
So find the right course to take these two. Show them the right things to do by making sure that you're doing them. Encourage them to use their talents and capacities to find their way in the world. It's true; sometimes, a student is just too screwy to get it together and do the work. It's a rare thing. I've only kicked out 2 or 3 students in almost 20 years because of their behavior. However, I've kicked out about 6 because of the behavior of the parents. I think those are pretty good stats and I'm nobody special. If you can make your classes flow in the manner I've described, I think you'll have more success and you'll enjoy the job a lot more. So far, it's worked well for me - for what it's worth.
At any rate, I wish you the very best.
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Pajamas and a Belt
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| POSTED BY: season on 08/05/2008 13:58:39 |
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First, I agree, for the most part, with major3rd's response. I would like to add - as a mother of a child with ADHD - that patience is a good trait to have (or develop as the case may be.) We have had similar students in our school and I told my master the same thing...weed those kids out because others aren't going to want to join or continue training with all the disruptions. He is way more patient than I am... So, I have some thoughts on the subject. My son ends up in the corner of the dojang at least once a week. He has his days, of course the upper ranked belts have push-up assigning authorities so I have seen him on the ground several times in one day! A question I have is how old are these kids? I have an idea for an extra requirement for next level exam. A 3 page normal 12 point font essay describing "why I want to continue training TKD" and "the definition of respect" and "why it is important to show respect to my master, instructors, school and all fellow student's" On a more practical note for younger than9 year old students, too much time to think about side-track issues unrelated to training is not a good idea- keep the kids busy. Any time they are not paying attention in any way, make them run laps around the class or push-ups, etc. Also, making them sit out of class while watching the others works well when the class is doing a fun activity. The fact that the kids parents are aware of the situation probably means that they have experienced similar problems and have come up with no solution. As an instructor you'll find that the parents are looking to you as a role-model for them as well as the kids. As a Master, you are also looked at as a therapist or chaplain. Although you are not the parent my feeling is that TKD masters and students should be developing a life-time bond, kind of like a fraternity or sorority. After all, TKD is a way of life and it is always the goal to become a black belt...right? TKD training is a responsibility taken on by both student and master - this reason is probably why some dojang's want applications for admission. The best advice I can give bejond this is that these kids are seeking attention, reward the good behaviors of all the students openly and often, and ignore the bad. When the behavior is disruptive, regular school-type punishments can work; like writing "I will not disrespect my master, instructor's, school or fellow students" 100 times. When they disrupt you, you disrupt them.
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Proud Parent
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| POSTED BY: season on 08/05/2008 14:08:31 |
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By the way, get the parents involved. Send these rules home and ask parents to report to you weekly on the following of these rules at home. similar rules posted in the dojang may help with a concise consequence for breaking them. Reward in front of class with patches or stripes stating "shows respect" or "good effort" etc. Kids like to be rewarded in front of others (mainly it helps because kids are naturally materialistic.) Children’s Home Rules
1. Children shall greet their parents when they enter the house and say goodbye when they leave.
2. Children shall at all times be respectful to their parents and their &nbs p; grandparents.
3. Children shall at all times be truthful.
4. Children shall strive for a good relationship with their brothers and sisters.
5. Children shall willingly help with the household chores.
6. Children shall report to their parents that they have completed assigned tasks.
7. Children shall be responsible for the upkeep and neatness of their own rooms.
8. Children shall practice daily cleanliness in the matter of hair, teeth, and body.
9. Children shall abide by their parent’s decisions.
10. Children shall not interrupt adult conversations.
11. Children shall refrain from rowdy behavior at home.
12. Children shall possess an active mind, body, and spirit.
13. Children shall diligently study their schoolwork at home and at school.
14. Children shall at all times show respect for their school, their teachers, and their peers.
15. Children shall always finish what they have already started.
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Proud Parent
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| POSTED BY: Dick on 08/05/2008 18:06:15 |
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Just a point I wish to make, I’m not really after advice on the manner on how I’ve disciplined these two students, it would be unfair of me to ask that you give an uninformed opinion with so little information available to you. Having said that whatever you have to offer I’ll happily accept. Sufficient to say my decisions with respect to this issue are not without a lot of forethought and I’m confident the outcome will be a positive one. Thanks for your comments Baby_Huey and season on alternatives to the laps, sit-ups, push-ups etc. I like the school punishment model you bring up season. Unfortunately (perhaps fortunately) Backstreet Boys are never going to make it to this neck of the woods Baby_Huey so my students are safe but the concept is a good one. |
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