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CelticTiger wrote:
While I question whether or not that was what karate was developed for (used for, but not originally developed for, but that is another discussion), the katana is not a traditional kobuto weapon in Okinawan te.
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Karate could not have been developed for this purpose. Given that its likely origin is in China (way of the China hand kanji being a possible givaway), it was developed independent of the samurai. It was more likely used in the Okinawan court, where weapons would have been prohibited. The notion of farmers coming up with karate to fight off samurai defies common sense.
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CelticTiger wrote:
If you are dealing with 'way of the empty hand' and a Japanese ryu, then it makes more sense. This comes down to the whole karate as an umbrella term and the shift from 'China hand' to 'empty hand' kanji and subsequent application to various unarmed Japanese ryu. All things considered, however, a katana is just a back-sword that can be used with either one or two hands. This is a weapon that was developed in many cultures independently, so aside from the various kata that were developed by the different kenjutsu ryu, the techniques that make it work are common in Japan, Korea, China, the mid-east, north Africa, eastern and western Europe, and the British Isles. The only reason that the "Katana" is taught as a unique weapon is because of the huge amount of popularity that the weapon enjoys. Daniel
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Yes. Vader
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I find your lack of faith disturbing.
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| POSTED BY: Wiseman1 on 12/03/2009 09:06:14 |
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My view of training with weapons is that once you grasp the way of fighting, it becomes universal no matter what weapon you posses, be it the hands or a stick. Now the details, certain moves, well that is something to truly practice with the weapon. But the general implication of the fighting way can and should be applied (once learned well) to any weapon. Therefore you do not have to train with a million weapons. You just have to train with one that incorporates all weapons, like the katana or the body itself, or a short stick a weapon that incorporates the short and long, close and far, orthodox and unorthodox, etc. Grasp the way and then the rest is just details. Therefore any weapon in the arms of a Martial Artist is deadly.
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“He who follows does not lead himself so where will he end?”
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Wiseman1 wrote:
My view of training with weapons is that once you grasp the way of fighting, it becomes universal no matter what weapon you posses, be it the hands or a stick. Now the details, certain moves, well that is something to truly practice with the weapon. But the general implication of the fighting way can and should be applied (once learned well) to any weapon. Therefore you do not have to train with a million weapons. You just have to train with one that incorporates all weapons, like the katana or the body itself, or a short stick a weapon that incorporates the short and long, close and far, orthodox and unorthodox, etc. Grasp the way and then the rest is just details. Therefore any weapon in the arms of a Martial Artist is deadly.
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This is only true to an extent. Different weapons have very different dynamics. There are weapon groups, where if you can do one, you can generally be at least marginally competent in the rest. But after years of sword work, having to learn and test for bo was definitely not just an 'adapt my bo to my sword skills' and go experience. Principles of distance and timing remain the same with any weapon, but the mechanics of using different weapons are such that it is not reasonable to say that you can just go from one to the other without a goodly amount of training. There is no single weapon that incorporates all weapons. As an instructor in a sword art that involves the katana specifically, I can tell you that it does not come anywhere near qualifying as incorporating all weapons. Wish it did, but it does not. Same with training the body. Now, the katana is a one/two handed backsword. The grip is two handed, but the blade is akin to a long saber. The same principles apply to its use as to a saber, a Scotish backsword, a scimitar, a Chinese broadsword, or a ye-do (Korean cousin to the katana). But the techniques for use with a Claymore, however, are substantially different, as are the techniques used with a smallsword. Daniel
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합기도 검도 태권도
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TKD_Dragon wrote:
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Darth_Vader wrote:
Weapons training should begin immediately. Strikes with the hand, elbow, knee or foot, grabs, all of these are taught easily enough. If you intend to incorporate weapons into your curriculum, you must integrate them from the outset. My view may not be... popular..., but it is correct. Modern society is such that only the criminal element go about armed in any manner. Weapons training at the outset gives the student a basic understanding of how they work and how better to defend against them. Yes, your students will take longer to reach black belt. This factor is insignificant, however, as it is the quality of the finished product that is important, not commercialized rapidity. Vader
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We need to remember a couple of key points here. The first is that many weapons we train with are not street legal. Most of us do not walk around with our swords, staffs, sais, so forth and so on with us at all times. Weapon training and sparrig is indeed a great deal of fun, however most places teach it as part of our traditions as martial artist. If you are walking down the street and someone attacks you with no weapons and you break your your chucks and taken them down you will end up in silver bracelets right beside the person who attacked you. If you are driving down the street with a sword beside you and you get pulled over you better have both a dam good reason for having it as well as a very understanding cop if that reason is valid or you will get arrested for it. The only true weapons we can train in and legally carry are our minds and bodies. The second best is a bo staff because you can find them anywhere with brooms and pool cues. Now this is of course my opinion and not be be confused with facts and I encourage everyone who trains in weapons to know your areas laws. some weapons you may get away with like escram sticks or fans but others will land you into legal issues if you are not careful about it. in many ways I do miss training in weapons, however I believe it is important to note that for those who have never had, or will ever have weapon training you are not missing much. When i trained at the USSD, we were allowed to do as many weapons as we liked but this training did not change belt status. Weapon training should not be part of any martial art ranking system and should not interfer with more practical training.
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I find nothing here to disagree with. In fact, your view mirrors my own. I would like to second Ariffe's mention of the cane. A jo staff is generally percieced as such by most as well. Aside from being permitted on airplanes, canes net defferential treatment from others when entering and exiting buildings. Vader
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I find your lack of faith disturbing.
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I think MilesTKD has the right idea. Having a monthly stickfighting seminar. I think beginners who are capable of learning empty hand are capable of learning a weapon. Not everyone is capable of either. In other martial arts I learned weapons from the beginning, but of course just the very basics. The advanced stuff of course is for people more advanced.
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I began practicing with various weapons in my youth, and expanded that as I entered Taekwondo training in the 70's. I have been teaching weapons to my students as a standard part of the curriculum since 1984, although certification in weapons is tested separately from the Taekwondo rank test requirements. While it does depend on the instructor, I believe that a thorough weapons program should be a part of Taekwondo training all through the geup levels for basic skills, and explored to a more advanced degree as a Black Belt. Some have suggested here that Taekwondo is an unarmed system, and the name does not imply weapons, but I would disagree. One important characteristic of any Martial Art discipline, including Taekwondo is "self defense." Whatever we do to enhance our ability to defend ourselves, that IS Taekwondo. While I place the greatest emphasis on a student's ability to defend themselves with just their mind, and body, training in weapons is virtually essential, therefore I believe it should automatically be included as part of all Taekwondo training. For one reason, I believe that most weapons are employed as an extension of your own body. The training compliments one another, and in my opinion, never interferes with the process or progress of a student. If anything, it enhances it. Practice with most weapons will strengthen key muscle groups in ways not normally available, and helps to develop coordination and timing. More importantly, one never knows when the criminal element in the street will attack with a weapon. I hold to the philosophy that one can better defend against an armed attacker if you are proficient with the weapon they are using, and familiar with its capabilities, the nature of its movements, its strengths and vulnerabilities. If you are going to learn to defend yourself against any possible weapon during classroom training, and you want it to be realistic, then your partner needs to know how to attack with that weapon as skillfully as any opponent you might encounter. So, if you don't learn weapons as an instructor, and you don't teach them to your students, then there will be no formidable partners to train realistically. Because I have trained for years with weapons such as the nunchakku, I can relatively easily disarm an attacker who uses them, especially if they are street trained, and not truly a weapons expert. I might not have my nunchakku on me (that particular day), but if I disarm the nunchakku attacker, and he then pulls a knife, I have a weapon and the knowledge of how to use it. Some have mentioned the legalities of weapons, and as a former police officer, I will agree with two things. First, you should know the laws in your area, and second, carrying weapons MIGHT get you into trouble. However, not all of those that we train with are considered "deadly" or even "dangerous weapons" in every jurisdiction. Carrying a weapon in plain sight, is typically not illegal in the U.S. The long, sharp weapons such as knives and swords typically are illegal to carry "concealed," meaning hidden under your clothing, or in a motor vehicle with easy access to the occupants (in the trunk is fine, but many police will give you a hard time about it). Sai usually do not fall into the dangerous weapon category because they do not have a sharpened edge. In our area, nunchakku are NOT illegal to carry, but it is the improper use of any of these weapons that can get you in trouble (you must check the laws in your area to be sure). As a general rule, if you are attacked, you have the right to defend yourself with whatever means are available to you, provided you use reasonable force consistent with the attack. This is true weather you fight back with your hands, feet, a chair, a butter knife, Ax, tire iron, sai, nunchakku, or katana. If you are attacked with deadly force, you probably will have the right to protect yourself with deadly force, including the use of any weapon, but you might have to justify your actions in a court of law. In my dojang, I teach the basics of the long and short staff to the low geup (9th, 8th 7th). The middle ranks (6th, 5th, 4th) learn tonfa. My high ranks transition from nunchakku to three-section staff, Sai, and Kama. The Black Belts begin with the bamboo (shinai), and wooden sword (boken) then progress to the Katana. A variety of other weapons are covered during Black Belt training as well. Chief Master Eisenhart
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Chief Master Eisenhart - United States Chung Do Kwan Association
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| POSTED BY: TK-D on 09/03/2010 09:52:39 |
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Chief_Master wrote:
Some have suggested here that Taekwondo is an unarmed system, and the name does not imply weapons, but I would disagree. Chief Master Eisenhart
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Yes I think that I would be in the dissent & would say that where in Tae Kwon Do is any weapons mentioned, other than feet & hands, shaped by the mind.   I also would add that Taekwon-Do or what I see referred to by some as original TKD or the KMA system that was 1st labeled TKD, strickly prohibits weapons under the philosophy put forth by the founder, Gen Choi. But then again, some of his very prominent pioneers have indeed included weapons as well. So to each their own. No need to respond, I am just poking fun  
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