| Total Views: 150 - Total Replies: 11 |
|
2008/5/10th
Greetings TKDspace members. 1st post here! I am not enrolled in a dojang, but used to be. I am reconsidering returning to the local WTF school, but since my time away a new 'Sport TKD' school has opened.
I am unsure of any differences they may have but I sat in the bleachers at this dojang and watched one of their classes. It did not seem any different from the WTF: sparring was big on their agenda. They did not appear to do any patterns on the night I watched.
Any 'Sport TKD'ers here? Anyone want to offer their opinions?
''itchin' to get back in the dojang!''
|
|
Much depends on what YOU are looking for. My experience is exclusively in the ATA, studying Chang Hon style forms in the 80s, before the ATA developed their own Songahm TKD curriculum. When you're picking a school, or a style, your best bet, is always to visit each school in your area and see what they're about, first hand. Talk to the instructors. Get a feel for their programs. Find out how long the school's been open. See how they intereact with their students. Watch student performance. Look at technique. Look at habits. Some things to watch out for... High pressure sales. Attitude problems. Too much emphasis on trophies/winning etc. (It's martial arts... not high school sports where the Captain of the football team dates the captain of the cheerleading squad due to overinflated egos and status wars.) Hidden costs. (If they get evasive about what it costs to train, also in terms of necessary equipment costs, and any restrictions such as 'you must buy equipment from us', and they ARE evasive about those things... watch out) Safety. (Good instructors are all over safety issues like white on rice. If students are dropping their hands in sparring and the instructor regularly sees this and deigns not to say anything to them about it... WATCH OUT. That's a RIDICULOUS habit to let a student get into. A round kick striking the melon with authority is equivalent to getting whacked with a ball bat... therefore, a good guard is ESSENTIAL. It's one thing to get faked into lowering the guard. NOT HAVING a guard up at the head and keeping it there as much as possible, is begging to get hurt. So good instructors stay on their students about that IMHO) Sport TKD... meaning the olympic style sparring, is okay for some folks. Other folks don't care for the full contact aspect of it. (I fall in that camp myself, since I work for a living and like most working class people, I can't afford to be off work because I got my brains knocked out partaking in a hobby I adore.) The biggest thing is just to speak with instructors and with students. Don't get swept up in the sales pitches... and just look at what the school offers you as a martial artist. If they offer free lessons for a period of time, whether it's one lesson, or a week or two weeks or thirty days... Avail yourself of those programs! They are the best way to see if the school is really a fit for you. Finally... just remember. If one school isn't a fit for you, that doesn't make it a bad place. Everyone is different. So the school you pass up today, might be the one that someone else would sign on to and be totally happy with it. Good luck in your search!
--------------------------------------------------------------
Getting through life takes just a LITTLE bit of insanity!*g*
|
| Back To Top |
|
Ranger1100ky,
Your reply is well read! Thank you. I have in fact visited this sport-tkd school and by chance-surprise, the assistant instructor hollared my name and went running up to me in the viewers' bleachers. To my surprise, this assistant instructor was a former black belt at the other WTF dojang that I used to be enrolled at. Turns out she recognized me in the crowd and encouraged me to take a gander at what they were offering. She did quell any concerns about hidden fees, as you pointed out. She did say that grading fees were separate from tuition. All fine and good signs. She offered the opinion that where she's at now, she's paid to assist in teaching, versus her displeasure at being asked to volunteer her time at the other WTF dojang (something I did not notice during my enrollment at the WTF when we both were in attendance).
***In hindsight:
I left later to think it over, mull it over. ***They DID have rampant head-shots during enmasse-group sparring. All twenty or thirty some students partnered up and started flailing away with roundhouse kicks galore! Quite the impressive sight. With just three instructors, I was noticing that numerous pairs were getting away with some illegal (or risky?) moves: •shoving their partner in the chestpad to establish space, •dropping their guard (arms) from protecting their face, • and lack of crisp-technique. This alarmed me. In their defense, when an instructor caught it, he or she would attempt to correct it, but they were outnumbered when everyone was kicking and flailing about.
Later they sat down to witness sparring in a circle: this time order was regained, but the men were exceptionally 'rough and tumble' with their sparring. Their technique seemed to vary from outright aggressive to downright appallingly poor. I witnessed a crisp head shot to one of the men: this was a red-flag for me. The teacher permitted it, and later telling me on the phone during a private conversation that it was quote: "On the side of the head, not the face." I distinctly remember the guy's head snapping sideways.
***As per your encouragement to talk to the teacher(s):
What turned me away was this conversation on the phone. In asking him where he trained before he began teaching, he said Aikido in Washington. a) He seemed to brag that he earned his black belt in Aikido, when he was just 14 years of age. b) he seemed proud that he earned this in the traditional Japanese way: Telling me he had earned four broken ribs during his black belt exam, whereby he had to fight his sensei by literally attempting to grab the black belt off of his sensei's waist. c) is this Aikido? d) is that traditional? e) lastly, is that legal and would not his parents sue this sensei for breaking their 14 year old son's ribs
Everything was fine for me about this sport tkd school, until I had a phone conversation with this teacher the day after my visit. With his words literally causing me to second-guess my decision, I think it is time to return to the ol' WTF Dojang.
Thanks for your reply to my post and your points to consider. sincerely, Eric |
| Back To Top |
|
The teacher's bragging, to the point of outright lying.
a) 14 year old black belt and...
b) ...traditional Japanese way together in the same sentence is an oxymoron. Furthermore while I'm only of intermediate knowledge in Aikido, grabbing the belt seems to me to be a thuggishly offensive test that proves nothing Aikido-related. Also, any martial arts teacher that breaks four ribs on a 14 year old as part of testing in the United States is either a fool or has infinite cash for liability insurance. Any candidate who continues testing with four broken ribs and the possibility of being thrown and sending a broken rib through the lung is a greater fool.
c) There is a range in how violent/damaging Aikido can be. On the whole though, I would say no. In my admittedly not-extensive experience, broken ribs are generally caused by blunt trauma applied directly to the ribs, not falls on mats. If you're at a level where when you get thrown you end up somehow landing on your ribs instead of rolling it off, then maybe you're not qualified to test for black belt.
d) Very much not traditional. e) I'm not a lawyer, but I imagine it would depend on whether a liability waiver was signed. |
| Back To Top |
|
KylejustKyle,
My sentiments exactly. Hearing this Sport TKD-'teacher' brag to me about having his ribs broken by his Aikido Sensei was shocking, in hindsight. At the time I was just speechless, then later after the phonecall I was sort of stunned that this man just fed me an entire history of narcissistic drama, and as you so poignantly put it, outright lying.
As for Aikido:
I am not an Aikidoka, but I've the greatest respect for Aikido, as an outsider-looking-in. From what I hear, Aikido is extremely effective and one should never underestimate their skills. Equally important, I have heard that traditional Aikido holds respect for each other at the highest. A teacher would never lower himself/herself to breaking the ribs of a child. You're right in stating that it doesn't take a lawyer to see how risky this man was, in breaking the ribs of his then-14 year old student , as well as the repercussions surely to follow by this person's parents. As for the man telling me this story, well at least I found out now, on the phone, and not in some weird incident if I had went to an actual ''class'' of his. kind regards. Eric B. |
| Back To Top |
|
Even without the phone call, there were clues in the way the class was handled. You saw a high level of violence and aggressiveness during sparring, enough that you felt it should be brought up in your post here. This may be a reflection of the instructor's own sense of macho "take it like a man" attitude. Whether he actually took his lumps "like a man" or made it all up is really irrelevant in this, it's the attitude and perception that matter.
As for Aikido's effectiveness, I have mixed feelings. I'm of intermediate rank, and have never had to apply my Aikido knowledge in a realistic situation. When I started in Aikido, I'd already had ten years experience in other styles, so that may be a factor in how I feel.
I believe that at one point in its past it was certainly very effective. Aikido has its roots in Aiki-jujutsu, which has its roots in older styles in Japan's violent Sengoku period and before. In that type of era, ineffective styles tend to get weeded out when their founders get killed by better fighters. Another point to keep in mind is that combat was primarily done on the battlefield, in armour and with weaponry. Empty handed fighting was for backup, and meant to fight combatans who were weighed down with 50 pounds of armour. In that sort of setting, a style which emphasizes using the opponent's balance against him would have been especially effective.
In modern times, many Aikido schools (none that I've seen personally) do not train students how to strike properly. This is a fundamental problem, because in partner exercises you're defending against opponents with very sloppy techniques and a poor sense of how to attack without destroying their own balance. Another issue is that the strikes you're defending against are typically "full commitment" strikes. In a real fight against someone of comparable training in a striking style you'll have problems, because their techniques will be better, faster, and more balanced than what you're used to in the dojo, and also because you probably have not been trained in how to handle light commitment strikes like jabs.
Part of this comes from Ueshiba's increasing interest in the Omoto-Kyo religion. Because of that Aikido moved progressively away from utilitarian aspects towards the spiritual. Actual effectiveness was, intentionally or not, de-emphasized.
|
| Back To Top |
|
|
thecrowrains wrote:
Ranger1100ky,
Your reply is well read! Thank you. I have in fact visited this sport-tkd school and by chance-surprise, the assistant instructor hollared my name and went running up to me in the viewers' bleachers. To my surprise, this assistant instructor was a former black belt at the other WTF dojang that I used to be enrolled at. Turns out she recognized me in the crowd and encouraged me to take a gander at what they were offering. She did quell any concerns about hidden fees, as you pointed out. She did say that grading fees were separate from tuition. All fine and good signs. She offered the opinion that where she's at now, she's paid to assist in teaching, versus her displeasure at being asked to volunteer her time at the other WTF dojang (something I did not notice during my enrollment at the WTF when we both were in attendance).
|
I guess being paid to be an assistant instructor is okay, if that is what one wants. I volunteered to do so often, and frankly, was HAPPY to do it, because it was a chance to develop my instructional abilities, with a safety net behind me...(Namely the certified instructor!) I have always had good instructors who treated me very fair, without 'paying' me. But by the same token... hey... if someone can get a gig like that, where they get paid to assist, more power to them.
|
Quote:
***In hindsight:
I left later to think it over, mull it over. ***They DID have rampant head-shots during enmasse-group sparring. All twenty or thirty some students partnered up and started flailing away with roundhouse kicks galore! Quite the impressive sight. With just three instructors, I was noticing that numerous pairs were getting away with some illegal (or risky?) moves:
•shoving their partner in the chestpad to establish space,
•dropping their guard (arms) from protecting their face,
• and lack of crisp-technique. This alarmed me. In their defense, when an instructor caught it, he or she would attempt to correct it, but they were outnumbered when everyone was kicking and flailing about.
|
It would've alarmed me too. Second Impact Syndrome is NO joke.
Technique issues, I'm a little flexible about, depending on my knowledge of the individuals... where they were as white belts, as to where they are now, in terms of technique.
I've had conversations before on the low guard issue. I get told that Bill Wallace did it, and some of the other champs did it, and I finally invite the person I'm talking to, to the mirror and say, "You stare in that mirror for a minute. And when you see Bill Wallace looking back at you... you come get me, I want his autograph. If he's not there in a minute, spar with your hands up so you might live to one day meet Mr. Wallace yourself to find out WHY HE could get away with a low guard, and why you shouldn't TRY at your experience and skill level."
I have tremendous respect for Mr. Wallace... but just because he, a HIGHLY experienced and uniquely gifted martial artist did something... is no reason for a typical martial arts student to try to emulate him, until that student has developed that experience and those gifts themselves.
|
Quote:
Later they sat down to witness sparring in a circle: this time order was regained, but the men were exceptionally 'rough and tumble' with their sparring. Their technique seemed to vary from outright aggressive to downright appallingly poor. I witnessed a crisp head shot to one of the men: this was a red-flag for me. The teacher permitted it, and later telling me on the phone during a private conversation that it was quote: "On the side of the head, not the face." I distinctly remember the guy's head snapping sideways.
|
Yikes... like headgear stops that brain from sloshing around? That's a red flag and a half.
To that instructor's defense... that's an unfortunate misconception, that a whack to the side of the head, even with headgear, is less injurious. Maybe it is for a world class athlete, who trains their neck muscles, and knows HOW to take a ringing headshot... but your average martial arts student? No chance. Most schools don't even COVER the 'how to safely weather a full ringing headshot'. There's a trick to it, and a big part of it, is to drop that chin DOWN, and let your whole body act as a shock absorber, rather than your neck and head.
|
Quote:
***As per your encouragement to talk to the teacher(s):
What turned me away was this conversation on the phone. In asking him where he trained before he began teaching, he said Aikido in Washington.
a) He seemed to brag that he earned his black belt in Aikido, when he was just 14 years of age.
b) he seemed proud that he earned this in the traditional Japanese way: Telling me he had earned four broken ribs during his black belt exam, whereby he had to fight his sensei by literally attempting to grab the black belt off of his sensei's waist.
c) is this Aikido?
d) is that traditional?
e) lastly, is that legal and would not his parents sue this sensei for breaking their 14 year old son's ribs
|
Oy vey...
Someone read too much Black Belt magazine and watched too many movies.
There isn't a paramedic on this planet who would've failed to have called him on that one. I know human beings can fight beyond pain in time of great need. (i.e. Life and death situation) That said, his claims are absurd. When someone gives me testimony to their own mystical powers, I start looking for an exit sign. The human body can only take so much, before natural law takes over and that body starts to fail its owner.
|
Quote:
Everything was fine for me about this sport tkd school, until I had a phone conversation with this teacher the day after my visit. With his words literally causing me to second-guess my decision, I think it is time to return to the ol' WTF Dojang.
|
That's perfectly understandable. I'd have done an about-face myself. There's a philisophical outage going on with that guy I'm afraid. No martial art that I am aware of, is about becoming "Billy Badass with the biggest, bawdiest belt buckle in the honky tonk."
I'll take an instructor with legendary patience, integrity and self control, be that mental, physical or spiritual or all the above... over someone who professes a legendary testosterone count, any day of the week. The former, will teach me something. The latter, could get me hurt. I'll take learning over getting hurt anytime. Even in a boxing gym, with a knowledgable and worn trainer, you'll never see THAT kind of attitude or philosophy. They may tell you about a rough fight they had... but they won't take their boxing student and make them relive it... if anything they'll try to make sure their student doesn't HAVE to relive it by teaching them right!
|
Quote:
Thanks for your reply to my post and your points to consider. sincerely, Eric
|
My pleasure Eric!
Excellent job looking out for yourself!
--------------------------------------------------------------
Getting through life takes just a LITTLE bit of insanity!*g*
|
| Back To Top |
|
Ranger1100ky, Great forum here for all to express their concerns.
And thanks for your last piece of information regarding my questions and concerns, particularly that at times even an old, worn, knowledgeable boxing trainer having much more to offer us than a testosterone, macheesmo guy. In the long run, as you mentioned, (I agree especially) that it's not about making their student relive a rough fight they had in their past in order for us to learn. That to me sums it up! Sure we're paying money to learn from folks in the martial arts world, but why on earth would we have to endure all their scars and injuries as well.
I'm currently in the process of mentally backtracking about that WTF dojang and if at all possible, return. They were head and shoulders above that ''sport tkd'' school, in hindsight.
My only concern I had with this WTF dojang was the added, separate fees to do grading exams. It had become a financial issue for me when they encouraged belt exams every-other month. ***This is much more adaptable than making the mistake of succumbing to the aforementioned ''sport guy''.
kind regards,
Eric B. |
| Back To Top |
|
| POSTED BY: msb1964 on 05/12/2008 05:57:27 |
|
As per the Aikido question, this is not a normal testing. If anyone got hurt during the test, even alittle, both failed the test. Hurting is not Aikido, Harmony is.
Mike
|
| Back To Top |
|
|
thecrowrains wrote:
Ranger1100ky, Great forum here for all to express their concerns.
And thanks for your last piece of information regarding my questions and concerns, particularly that at times even an old, worn, knowledgeable boxing trainer having much more to offer us than a testosterone, macheesmo guy. In the long run, as you mentioned, (I agree especially) that it's not about making their student relive a rough fight they had in their past in order for us to learn. That to me sums it up! Sure we're paying money to learn from folks in the martial arts world, but why on earth would we have to endure all their scars and injuries as well.
I'm currently in the process of mentally backtracking about that WTF dojang and if at all possible, return. They were head and shoulders above that ''sport tkd'' school, in hindsight.
My only concern I had with this WTF dojang was the added, separate fees to do grading exams. It had become a financial issue for me when they encouraged belt exams every-other month. ***This is much more adaptable than making the mistake of succumbing to the aforementioned ''sport guy''.
kind regards,
Eric B.
|
That's understandable. Everyone's feeling the financial pinch... students and school owners alike. One thought on testings... if testing every two months is a bit difficult for your wallet to absorb... you CAN consider testing less often. Your progress up the rank ladder slows a bit, but on the other hand... by the time you're ready to test for black belt... you should have some awesome technique, because of the extra practice you put in on all of your previous material. That's just one thought, for what it's worth. Anyway, YES, I definitely agree... belt test costs don't even compare to what high medical costs do! LOL
--------------------------------------------------------------
Getting through life takes just a LITTLE bit of insanity!*g*
|
| Back To Top |
|
|
