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As near as I can tell, most martial arts students quit after getting their blackbelts. I have been fortunate to see a greater percentage of our kumdo students stay after reaching blackbelt, but even though the percentage is greater, there is still a large dropoff after first dan.
A few thoughts:
I feel that students who do stay on after getting their black blelts boost the morale of the class as a whole and encourage others to stay on simply by their continued presence.
Also, student retained after blackbelt is level help keep the school going when enrollment is weak due to tough financial times (like now).
Continuing first dan students give credibility to the school and help to avoid the impression that the dojang is merely an after school program or summer camp. While the dojang may offer such programs, those should be nice perks and extras, not the main function of the dojang.
Lastly, first dan students who stay on can help with lower belt students, thus a larger class can get be taught with students still getting a level of personalized attention.
My questions to others here are, at your dojang, how is the student retention after first dan and does your dojang emphasize continued instruction after first dan? If so, how effective is that emphasis?
Daniel
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교사 Yidan kumdo, Ildan taekwondo
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Hi Daniel, sounds to me like the class retention is dependent on having a role model(s) to spur on new members or people in the middle grades such as 5th kup. I think what can be a problem for newly graded 1st Dans (and I speak from experience here) is that their own role model is no longer visible, the carrot at the end of the rope is gone. The real question should not be what the black belts can do for the rest of the class but how they can be used to help each other.
A possible suggestion is to split the class, stagger them so that one is for advanced students (2nd Kup and up) and the other is for everyone, that way the first class can act as a warm up and a lesson in coaching and being a role model for the lower belts and the advanced session can be where they get their "buzz" from.
I suffered after getting my first dan as i was helping others out so much I didnt get a workout, this is only my opinion but the club needs to attend to the needs of all its members when it can.
Hope this helps,
Joe
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Form is temporary, class is permanent.
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| POSTED BY: Danni on 03/25/2008 12:22:54 |
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For kid pooms, maybe only 1 in 5 will stick around and keep training to get their adult black belt or more. For the adults who make it to black, 4/5 will stick around. As for helping to teach, there are only a few (3-6) who regularly teach kids classes, but the others work later so they can't come in to teach the kids so it is understandable. Like Joeyriles said, we also have a hard time getting a good workout after black belt because we're all teaching during the adult class.
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simplify
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| POSTED BY: IcemanSK on 03/25/2008 14:53:15 |
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I think a lot has to do with the way we present the idea of BB. (When I say "we" I mean instructors/school owners). We sell the idea the "we are a BB school" & "BB excellence" to our students, as if it's the highest thing to can acheive in TKD.
We subtly express the idea (by saying "everyone wants to be a BB) that when that day comes, the heavens open up & they will understand the mysteries of the MA universe. Instead, the reality is, they've learned the basics & the real learning begins at BB. Not to mention, a lot of masters have no intention or even a clue as to how to lead a student beyond 1st Dan.
Because many masters don't have a plan for students beyond BB, students simply check "getting my BB" off their list of "things to accomplish" & then they move on. Since there is no more challenge then there must not be anything else to accomplish in TKD.
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| POSTED BY: Dick on 03/25/2008 22:28:28 |
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Historically retention at my school has been rather poor. The goal seems to be to attain Black rather then to advance beyond. Having said that there (apart from improving technique) seemed little to go on to and not all find assisting to teach all that rewarding. When I took over at the beginning of last year I've been working on bringing in some advanced work for Cho Dan Bos, 1st Dans etc. Defence against freestyle knife attacks, two on one sparring, sparring against a knife currently makes up some of that advance curriculum. A lot is a bit of a shot in the dark to see what suits best. Pick up a lot of good info from this forum. What I do know is that you need to invest time in retaining your Black Belts and you need to get students to understand that 1st Dan is not the end of the road. When the Black Belts do their specific training I have the other students around the mat to watch so they understand that.
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| POSTED BY: IcemanSK on 03/26/2008 09:02:54 |
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I've wrestled with the thought of BB retention for a long time. Dick, I think you're right about giving the new BB's a lot more attention & teaching them new techniques & giving them new experiences.
I've also wrestled over whether they should teach (in lieu of paying for class) or have them continue to pay while adding a BB class. I love the idea of a BB class (both as a student & instructor) but I still think BB's need to pay for class. My own experience as a student, & in other areas of life, teaches me that folks value what they invest in. Paying for class puts there $$ where there heart is. As long as they are learning new things as they also teaching, there is value beyond, "I'm paying to teach class."
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Firstly, thank you all for your comments and insights.
Personally, I teach kumdo class two days a week and attend kumdo class one or two other days, depending on schedule. Plus I do TKD and Hapkido. Most places don't make BB a freebie until 3rd dan, whether the BB teaches or not.
Iceman, I can relate to the whole 'we are a blackbelt school' mentality. While our school doesn't advertise it, it is reinforced that the blackbelt is the goal. In our kumdo classes, we seem to have overcome that to a degree, but I've seen none of the blackbelts from TKD on any kind of a consistent basis after they get their belts. Some of my son's friends go to a taijutsu school near our home and they have a banner proudly proclaiming 'we are a blackbelt school' visible from the outside. I was able to do a teleconference to get in on a Master Childs seminar and when he spoke, he said that the goal of the school is to prepare the students for graduation, i.e. earning their blackbelt. I'll have to ask my son's friends what BB retention is like at their school. Dick, Joey, Danni, a lot of good ideas. Thanks! Daniel
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교사 Yidan kumdo, Ildan taekwondo
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| POSTED BY: doughboy on 03/29/2008 18:30:09 |
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in korea, i believe you have to be 3rd dan in order not to pay for classes. i, however, haven't paid for a class since 1990. lol.
back in my dojang in korea, about 80% of black belts were still training. even if they are busy with work and school, they would come once a week or two weeks, or whenever their schedule allowed them to.
in vancouver though, a lot of young black belts just take a year or two off after getting 1st dan. i saw a lot of them leaving, but then i saw a lot of them coming back. adults, however, more than enough of them kept training. we had 40-50 yr old 2nd/3rd dans who don't spend much time at home, because they are always working and training.
right now though, we only have handful of black belt, who still trains. but i can kinda see who are more likely to leave as soon as they get their black belt.
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i'm delicious
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A local school doesn't offer anything really for their black belts and above, because for one, their instructor is a fake rank, only promoted due to thef act a student who was helping him teach was one degree above. He got moved up in a system that just takes a fee, has you do a few things, your choise, and gives the rank. Two girls, earned their 2nd degree this way, and combined their test was shorter than a gren or blue belt test in our system.
For our system, 22 forms, 23 kicks/punches, 20+ kicks, 6 stances, 4 sets of 1 / 3 5 / modifified step sparring, 8 sets of five self defense sets, and more are required just to get to black. Many would say hey, that's more than enough, I quit. That has been the case. However, as the two ladies have realized, and I as I continue to train, we have a lot more to offer to test students on. My 1st dan test was over 4 hours long, with one other person. We did everything we knew. EVERYTHING! I'm hoping to test for 2nd dan this year, and in addition to doing my self defense sets, and 22 under black belt forms I will have a lot more to do. I am almost done with my four man form, and one single form. I still have one more single form, and then both sides to a double man form. I am also refreshing on my brown belt self defense, red belt self-defense, and 2 more red belt patterns.
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Kicking4JC = Kicking for Jesus Christ
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| POSTED BY: Danni on 03/29/2008 20:46:49 |
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none of our black belts pay for class, and for me it's great because i'm a college student and if i had to pay for class i probably wouldn't be going anymore. i don't like that all black belts get to go for free because i think that unless you are teaching you should be paying.
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simplify
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