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simplify

kalynn wrote: I would appreciate more standardization within my own style.  It seems to me that school masters can do whatever they want and the Kukkiwon doesn't force any kind of standardization.  I don't like it that I've seen people become black belts without ever sparring.  You don't have to like every aspect of training, but you should know every aspect of the art.

But aren't there already minimum standards there on the Kukkiwon website?  Naturally instructors can raise the bar, are you suggesting that there be a higher standard or only one test that all instructors would adhere to regardless.  Our first test BB was 6 hours long after a two yr training period and included running, 1 step sparring, hand drills, foot drills, and breaking as well as all of the forms and sparring.  Our 2nd degree test at Kukkiwon was 2 forms, a few round houses, a few ax kicks and 30 seconds of sparring.  I do think that Kukkiwon needs to raise their minimum standard but I understand also that there are time constraints with testing thousands of people each weekend.  So I guess there is something to be said about placing that burden on the instructor and turning out the kind of student that you want representing your school regardless of the minimum required. 

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Student of the Zero Chamber Power Kick

Well have a got some interesting info for you all,

One of my family members is currently teaching english in South Korea. They attended a BB grading. One friend was grading who was a foreigner from another country only trained for 6 months. Yes 6 months and graded for his 1st dan. Now they also picked alot of differences in the grading.

Grading for BB

Basic 3
T8
T3

end of grading.

They also saw other people who already had BB's grading and only did a

Basic pattern
Koryo
T pattern

end of grading.


Now if we talk about standards, should the standards still apply if you have 1000
students grading and have only 1hr to grade them?? Question was raised too, this happens all the time, grading is held more often and grades are handed out
alot faster than other countries. I know they train, eat, sleep and breathe TKD there. But are the standards the same?? Think of the costs of grading, what did it
cost you to grade, I think my memory that theres a huge difference in grading fees to get a kukkiwon cert.

NZ fees when I graded, note these vary depending on clubs

1st Dan

$330

2nd Dan

$400

3rd Dan

$700

4th Dan

$1000

Anyone see any differences, when i checked via the internet, standard fee in USA was about $70 - 90 US dollar for 1st Dan. Please comment on prices. I know that
some schools need to survive and make a profit and have no problem in that.

Another topic, should they join all styles and form one organisation.......I think it would work if we were all kids....but in reality this will never happen. Its very hard to give up so called power and then to share it with others. Politics Politics, who will be the President, GrandMaster etc. What rules will we follow, what patterns will we use. Which is wrong which is right. Do we do traditional or Sport. There is too much to repair. And not enough willing people to accept the changes needed to be made for the improvement of TKD. This may sound negative and some may disagree, so I may have to reinforce this with some history to explain where i'm coming from.


We have in my country alot of different TKD styles, just to mention a few

NZTF
Taekwondo Union
ITF
Limms
TNZ
Aotearoa TKD

Short story....NZTF was the governing body for TKD NZ. If you wanted to go compete at the big O games then you had to fight in NZTF tournaments. This also ment that you had to have a kukkiwon certificate. So all blackbelt gradings for Kukkiwon cert had to go through NZTF. Big meeting with different styles, formed a committee { Joint governing body } with members from each style.

Didn't work, Some hidden adgenda's, not all goals aligned, not all brought into the vision that was drawn up. Big split, NZTF lost the rights, TNZ formed and took over rights of grading and the big O selection.

kapai wrote: Well have a got some interesting info for you all, One of my family members is currently teaching english in South Korea. They attended a BB grading. One friend was grading who was a foreigner from another country only trained for 6 months. Yes 6 months and graded for his 1st dan.

technically, kukkiwon doesn't set the minimum training required for how long you should train before the 1st dan.  back in korea, i've heard of someone who learned all patterns in 2 weeks and tested for his 1st dan.  of course, he was a special case, as he was extremely talented athlete who only practiced WTF sparring aspect at his highschool tkd team, but never did other things in tkd.

Quote:   Grading for BB Basic 3 T8 T3 end of grading. They also saw other people who already had BB's grading and only did a Basic pattern Koryo T pattern end of grading.

between 1st and 3rd dan, they get so many people testing, kukkiwon set the testing to be 1 random pattern out of taeguek, their black belt pattern, 1 round of sparring, and breaking, although breaking doesn't get done on a regular basis anymore. 
when i went to my 4th dan testing at kukkiwon, i noticed a lot of difference between 1st-3rd dan testing and 4th dan testing.  those who go for 4th dan in korea are someone who actually takes tkd seriously.  and, even though i spent 7 years in elementary/middle/high school tkd team and my school almost always made it to quarter final (so i knew and saw most of those who were "good" in my age), i couldn't believe how good these 18-20 yr old 3rd dans who were testing for 4th dan.  for 4th dan, i had to do taeguek 7, koryo, kumkang and taeback, one round of sparring (which i got schooled), board breaking, specialty (i did 10 pushups with my index finger and thumb - most ppl does fancy jumping kicks), and an essay (some did exams instead of essay). 

Quote: Now if we talk about standards, should the standards still apply if you have 1000 students grading and have only 1hr to grade them?? Question was raised too, this happens all the time, grading is held more often and grades are handed out alot faster than other countries.

kukkiwon tends to "give out" 1st and 2nd dan.  basically, unless you just freeze up at the very beginning of your calss and run out the door crying and never came back, you would pass. 

Quote: Another topic, should they join all styles and form one organisation.......I think it would work if we were all kids....

lord of the flies says it all.  lol

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i'm delicious

I really don't see such a wide open tournament series happening.

It just costs money to put on a tournament... all across the board.

For people to participate in such a tournament, you're talking about a lot of instructors being left with having to teach their students HOW to spar in such a tournament. 

If they do NOT... all you get, is a laundry list that you can stretch halfway around the world, of people injured or even killed competing.

The Olympic model of sparring, is potentially VERY dangerous.  All it takes is one drop of the hands, (in a sport where a lot of people DO keep their hands 'way down'), for someone to get their head punted with the equivalent force to Ken Griffey Jr's swing of a bat in a major league ballgame.

While we'll always have our martial artists who want to 'go for the gold'...  I don't think you're going to convince most adults to spar that way.  Not if they have jobs to go to, kids to raise, and bills to pay.  The potential risks just aren't worth the profit to a lot of them. 

By and large anyway, most students only go to a few tournaments here and there as it is, IF they even go to them at all.

On the subject of all the organizations getting together and coming under one group?

I REALLY don't see that happening.

Let's say for the sake of arguement that talks start right now between the organizations...

Whose curriculum wins out here? 

Will it be the Pal Gwe system?
How about the Taeguek system?
How about the Pinan forms?
The 'legacy' Chang Hon system (The original 20 forms that Gen Choi penned)
The CURRENT Chang Hon system (The final 24 forms that represent the ITF system today)
The Songahm system?
A hybrid system combining forms of a couple of different (of the above) systems?
How about a whole NEW system of forms?

You see...  right there... you blow your chances of the organizations merging.  Even if you DO merge... you're going to lose people, who don't WANT to change their system of study, because they're already invested in the system they're in.

I think frankly, the diversity of organizations, and the fact that we even have independent schools that operate without ANY organizational influence, really HELPS Taekwondo as a martial art. 

The reason it helps, is because there's something in the TKD world that appeals to everyone. 

If a black belt or instructor feels that something their organization is doing, is detrimental to their students and the way they want to teach their students, they can switch organizations or go it alone.  This does two things.  It benefits the organization they leave, by NOT letting the conflict between the organization and instructor fester and get worse to everyone's detriment..  AND it benefits the instructor who feels that their students would be better off by the change.

Maybe someone doesn't care much for WTF/Olympic style sparring?  (That's me...  It's just not my sort of thing.  At 39 years old, I'm not going to 'readily' recover from injuries.  I'm past my prime to be involved in that kind of sport as a participant.)

Some people don't care for 'point break sparring' like the ATA does?

That's great really, that we HAVE different organizations and independents out there because it means students can find their niche!  That's a GREAT thing! 

Just as its a great thing, that somene who isn't feeling rambunctious enough for the rigors of Taekwondo training... can instead, get into Tai Chi.

And just as it's a great thing, that someone who is ONLY concerned with hand to hand combat without the artsy side... can get into Krav Maga.

Then you have folks like me, who are more into the 'art' aspect of the martial arts.  We may like to spar some, but for us, 'the way' is more important than the physical.

I therefore think our diversity in Taekwondo IS a tremendous blessing and a strength.

I'd be, in all fairness, pretty disappointed, if there WAS a substantial and effective movement to get everyone in the TKD world to fit neatly in one box.

Humanity doesn't... why the heck should our TKD fit into one uniform box?  I think we'd hurt the TKD world more than we helped it if all our organizations and independents did try to merge under one official banner.

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Getting through life takes just a LITTLE bit of insanity!*g*

ranger1100ky wrote: On the subject of all the organizations getting together and coming under one group? I REALLY don't see that happening. Let's say for the sake of arguement that talks start right now between the organizations... Whose curriculum wins out here?  Will it be the Pal Gwe system? How about the Taeguek system? How about the Pinan forms? The 'legacy' Chang Hon system (The original 20 forms that Gen Choi penned) The CURRENT Chang Hon system (The final 24 forms that represent the ITF system today) The Songahm system? A hybrid system combining forms of a couple of different (of the above) systems? How about a whole NEW system of forms? You see...  right there... you blow your chances of the organizations merging.  Even if you DO merge... you're going to lose people, who don't WANT to change their system of study, because they're already invested in the system they're in. I think frankly, the diversity of organizations, and the fact that we even have independent schools that operate without ANY organizational influence, really HELPS Taekwondo as a martial art.

First of all, I agree it may never happen. However, the merger that most talk about is the ITF & WTF. Right now the ITF-NK is engaging in a series of merger talks with the WTF. However, some watching this think it has more to do with the political situation between the 2 halves of Korea, then TKD. Anyhow, they have set up sub-committees to work out these above issues. Some say, ITF forms & WTF sparring as a quick fix. Then of course there is every possible combination of that, from all WTF to all ITF rules to an even mix.
Again I think you are right. What ever combination one comes up with, IF they settle differences, will turn off some people. The diversity is also probably good for TKD. Sorry these present talks seem to leave out the other groups. Again, that is I think more about the politics of Korea, not the politcs of TKD. BTW they haven't even got to the politics of all of TKD, so that is another giant hurdle.
If you view TKD as some sort of umbrella term, label or name for all KMAs of a striking style, then merging groups is easier. If you find that you lean towards a more specific defintion of what TKD is, then I think the prosepcts for a merger become even more complex than they already are.

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